After Giorgia Meloni’s victory in the legislative elections on Sunday, September 25, Italy is entering a phase of political uncertainty and the foreign media no longer know what political vocabulary to deal with. Often described as “neofascist”, the leader of Fratelli d’Italia is also sometimes referred to in the press as “post-fascist”. Marie Anne-Matard Bonucci, historian specializing in Italian fascism, prefers to talk about “radical right”. A teacher at Paris VIII and president of the anti-racist association Alarmer, she returns for franceinfo to the origin of these different terms and to the ideological positioning of the one the Italians call “La Meloni”.
>>> Italy: what contains the program of Giorgia Meloni, the far-right leader who could become Prime Minister
franceinfo: What do we mean by neofascism and post-fascism?
Marie-Anne-Matard Bonucci: Neofascism designates the movements which were created after the fall of the fascist regime and which aimed to revive, possibly in different ways, or even to prolong the experience of fascism. This was the case of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), which was created in 1946, and Giorgina Meloni became involved in 1992 in the Youth Front, the youth organization of the Italian Social Movement. Then, post-fascism is an ambiguous term which, from my point of view, is not satisfactory. It seems to refer to the idea of an “after”. One then wonders if the “after” is simply chronological or if it is a question of saying that these movements have turned the page with the fascist heritage. It is a term which is used when there is a genealogical link, but which, at the same time, seems to indicate that we are in another dimension than that of fascism.
What do you think is the best term to describe Giorgia Meloni’s program?
I think that it is preferable to speak, to characterize the movement of Fratelli d’Italia, of the populist radical right or possibly of the populist extreme right. Radical right is more satisfying than extreme right, because the expression refers to the idea of radicalization, of potential radicalization and this is indeed the case of Giorgia Meloni’s movement. To define this radical right, the American political scientist Cass Mudde proposed three characteristics: nativism, authoritarianism and populism. And these three components are indeed present in the program and the speech of Fratelli d’Italia. Nativism is the idea that in the conception of the Nation, it is advisable to privilege a form of blood law. With Giorgia Meloni, nativism in fact passes through the invocation of Christianity.
She insisted a lot in her campaign on the fact that she was a Christian. This marker of Christianity is above all intended to stand out from those who are not, and in this case of course, from migrants, from all those who have a history foreign to Europe.
Marie-Anne Matard-Bonucci, historianat franceinfo
It identifies Christianity and Europe, which, of course, is a historical shortcut. Authoritarianism is present in her program in the sense that she would like to create a presidential republic by giving more power to the executive. And moreover, we will find a legacy of this neo-fascist political culture – which is his initial political culture – if we delve into his biography where we will find many praises of the leader. And indeed, she embodies, in a certain way, a certain ideal of the leader with a real charisma which partly explains her electoral success. The third component is populism. A term indeed on which we have much discussed, but one of the major characteristics of which consists in opposing the people and the elites. And that, indeed, was also a recurring element in Giorgia Meloni’s speech.
You speak of neo-fascist culture… Does this mean that Giorgia Meloni did not completely break with Mussolini’s political heritage?
There are themes in Meloni’s speech that were obviously present in fascism, in fascist political culture, but which are not specific to fascism. There are conservative values - the defense of the family, the birth rate, hypernationalism, the desire to make Italy a great country -, sometimes reminders of a past of greatness, the empire, etc. Things that are actually present in fascism but that we find in other nationalist regimes.
In fascism, there is the will to create a totalitarian society, a totalitarian regime. And that ambition is no longer present in Giorgia Meloni’s speech.
Marie-Anne Matard-Bonucciat franceinfo
In her book, sometimes, she speaks of a divine conception of politics. That’s a bit worrying though. But overall, I would say it’s part of liberal democracy, where fascism hated democracy, fought democracy. From this point of view, there is a real break with the fascist past. But, on the other hand, I still think that she remains impregnated with a part of this political culture which is hers and which she acquired when she was young. You have to read his book to be convinced. She says very little about historical fascism as such, but, for example, it’s very interesting to see how she talks about her youth and therefore her involvement in the neo-fascist movement with incredible nostalgia.
To gain power, will Giorgia Meloni have to give stronger signs of a break with this fascist cultural heritage?
She gave them, in words anyway. For example, a fortnight ago she made a video in three languages, in French, in Spanish and in English, in which she said precisely “We have relegated fascism to history”. She also condemned anti-Jewish laws. And that was clearly intended to reassure European opinions. The difficulty it will have, I think, is to compose between international opinion and a part of its base from which it will not want to differentiate itself. There is an authentically fascist extreme right in Italy, parties like CasaPound or Forza Nuova. Neither the MSI nor the National Alliance have ever completely broken with these more extremist parties. There have always been links, passages from one party to another. It will be interesting to see how Giorgia Meloni behaves and what connection she has with them.
Although the history of our two countries is very different, what you are describing is reminiscent of the career of Marine Le Pen. She had to distance herself from a historical fringe of the National Front, and her father Jean-Marie Le Pen, to widen her electorate…
There is a process of de-demonization which is indeed comparable. The difference may be, is that historical fascism represents 20 years of power, of the exercise of power and it is a regime which was able, at a given moment, to exercise an ascendancy over the population. There was, probably in the mid-1930s, a consensus of part of the population around the regime. It’s a diet that was actually popular at one time.
It’s probably easier to get rid of the legacy of a National Front [version] Jean-Marie le Pen, who never exercised power, only a reference to a piece of history such as Italian fascism.
Anne-Marie Motard-Bonucciat franceinfo
If only because there isn’t a small town in Italy where there isn’t a building from the fascist era. It is a regime which was an extremely constructive regime, which partly transformed from this point of view, the Italian architectural physiognomy. And that legacy, it’s there, it’s in the city.
There is still the memory of the victims…
Precisely, the more time passes, the more the memory of antifascism and of the victims also weakens. We trivialize, we somehow defascize fascism. And we forget that it was a police and warmongering regime, etc.