The documentary “Afghans”, broadcast on Sunday March 12 on France 5, traces the tragic living conditions of Afghan women. Director Solène Chalvon-Fioriti answered questions from franceinfo.
Stoning, ban on studying, prohibition to frequent public parks… Since the return to power of the Taliban, Afghanistan is considered by the UN as “the most repressive country” in the world for women. Every day their rights are reduced a bit more. In the documentary afghan women, broadcast on Sunday March 12 on France 5, director Solène Chalvon-Fioriti gives the floor to four generations of women. The journalist, shaped by her eleven years spent in the country, returns for franceinfo to the daily life under the influence of Afghan women.
Franceinfo: Was it easy to interview these women?
Solene Chalvon-Fioriti : In general, it is rather difficult. But as far as I’m concerned, it was rather simple, because these are women I had already met through other reports. I naturally turned to them when I decided to make this documentary, because I wanted it to be intimate and that we could see each other in their places of life. Above all, I chose that there are no men in the film. The only man we see is the Taliban judge, whom I had to keep in the edit, because without him, we couldn’t understand the sequence. But I wanted 75 minutes of female voices, without men telling them what to say, which is common in Afghanistan. I didn’t want a man on my film crew either.
Can these women speak freely without a man’s consent?
No. I had to ask the patriarchs, when there were any, for their agreement, because I didn’t want them to pay for talking to me. In general, if there is a man in the family, I never take the risk in Afghanistan, under the pretext that I am a feminist and emancipated, of making women speak by simply holding out a microphone. It can be very risky for them. I always warn that I will come, but I ask on the other hand to be alone with the women whom I interrogate. But there are families in which there is no longer a man, so it is easier to question them.
For this film, I also made the choice not to go towards threatened women, as could have been women politicians, judges, policewomen… In these cases, I should have hidden faces.
“I didn’t want to blur these faces. I wanted us to see their expressions, their gaze. I chose less exposed women who could speak freely, without being afraid.”
Solène Chalvon-Fioriti, director of “Afghanes”at franceinfo
But they are so unaccustomed to letting themselves be photographed or filmed that it’s a real job. You have to show them the image afterwards in the case, ask them if it suits them, it’s often a bit complicated.
In the documentary, we see a woman who has sold two of her daughters. How was this interview?
This woman risks nothing in the sense that selling her children is an extremely widespread customary practice. The Taliban don’t care. They say that Islamic law prohibits it, but they do nothing to curb this practice. They even deny that it exists, because for them, it is to tarnish the image of Afghanistan. The only fear that this woman may have, if the film were to be seen in the country, would be the gaze of her neighbors, who will say that she is a bad woman, because she is talking to a journalist.
The important thing for me is to make sure that the film is not broadcast in Afghanistan and that there are no images on Twitter, because it is the main source of information for the Taliban. As a precaution, because the erasure of the feminine by the Taliban is such with new prohibitions which are constantly falling, I prefer not to put anything on Twitter. You can’t tell with them. Maybe one day they will go after all the women who speak in the media.
The archives that are in the film, which belong to Afghan heritage, like our national archives in our country, I couldn’t get them for months and months when I was paying because the Taliban were blocking me because there had images of women in these documents. Whereas these are photos of women from the 1960s that they have never seen. They are there. That’s why I’m careful not to put women’s faces on Twitter so that they don’t get annoyed or instrumentalized.
It was long thought that the war had left Afghanistan before the return of the Taliban, and that the population lived relatively peacefully…
Actually, no, not really. This country is so remote, so arid that it was a hidden war, and which has lasted for 40 years. The regions were so dangerous that no one dared to venture there… It happened behind valleys of stones, so there was no media coverage. The end of the conflict with the Russians and their withdrawal did not calm things down. But this war was poorly understood and therefore was not relayed. Moreover, the young Afghan girls from the cities in the film understand nothing of what is happening to them. They had never seen the Taliban, or even heard their language, Pashtun. They kind of end up with aliens on their streets.
Their dejection and helplessness are evident in your film…
Yes, young city dwellers are totally flabbergasted and in terrible distress and psychological suffering. It struck me deeply to see this disarray on a large scale. However, I have been covering countries at war for 12 years, but going into homes and seeing little girls slumped on the ground, who have no more tone, no more energy, is overwhelming.
“Depriving little girls of going to school is not simply depriving them of education, it is depriving them of socialization, even if there are a few clandestine schools.”
Solène Chalvon-Fioriti, director of “Afghanes”at franceinfo
In Afghanistan, little girls don’t play outside because it’s war outside, so school is the only place where they escape the home, which can sometimes be a bit authoritarian or even tyrannical. And then they are also cut off from their friends. All this causes a veritable tide of depression.
Are suicides frequent?
Yes, a lot. 80% of suicides in Afghanistan right now are mostly girls. I don’t have the figures from the United Nations, but it’s one per day, one per night… It’s huge.
How do the men who do not adhere to the policies of the Taliban do?
The Taliban system is organized on civil terror. Women are the first targets, they must be erased. We need an Afghanistan without Afghan women. If a woman ventures into the streets without a veil or if their abaya is not long enough, they consider that she is obstructing their period, but it is not they who are arrested but their brother or their father. They are the ones who will suffer the blows, the threats and after three warnings they can lose their job. It’s a story of culture, it’s the man who pays for the woman’s fixed prices. So men are also under enormous pressure.
In addition, they do not have the culture of demonstration. When there are, it always results in an attack, unlike Iran where the people can express their anger. Above all, the country has been at war for 40 years.
“It’s been four generations of women and men who have been tortured by these conflicts. They are bloodless and survive as best they can in this climate.”
Solène Chalvon-Fioriti, director of “Afghanes”at franceinfo
But I hope that some of these men will manage to regain enough vigor to try to change things. Because without the men, nothing can be done in Afghanistan.
How are they essential?
Without men, there are no clandestine schools, for example. There is always a father, a patriarch, who guarantees the parents and the neighbors the safety of the girls. That is to say, basically, they won’t see men, otherwise it can’t work. The man is considered the respectable authority in the eyes of all.
Why show, in part, a stoning scene in the film?
I’m not the one filming this scene, because I could never have. In fact, I was living in Afghanistan in 2015 when this stoning took place and I had worked on this case in order to show that this kind of practice still takes place in remote areas, and not necessarily by the Taliban. If I wanted to put this archive in the film, it’s not for the image, because we see very little, but what is above all terrible and enlightening is the sound. Because men don’t say: “Punish Her”. They say : “Destroy it, finish his soul, go stronger.” What we see very clearly in this scene is that in fact we are not punishing women in Afghanistan, we are destroying them.
Why such violence?
I think this is due to the war and the violence that this people have suffered for years. When it’s been 40 years since you’ve been dispossessed of your land, of your livestock, of your money…that you’ve been dragged from refugee camp to refugee camp…that there’s no longer any notable authority in your village, but it is a militiaman or a warlord who is reshaping the social order, your last possession, your symbolic possession, is your wife. We understand in this scene that the woman is a stress reliever. I don’t think that the Afghans are congenital monsters, but that their violence against women is the result of this perpetual state of war that plagues this country.
What impressed you the most in Afghanistan?
What strikes me the most is the honor of these women. In France, this may seem a bit retrograde, attached to the patriarchy, but this is not the case in Afghanistan. Honor and religion are the cardinal virtues of this country. Honor is actually human dignity in the minds of Afghan women. I hope that comes across in the film. This extremely calibrated dignity that they have and which makes them appear as anything but small victims or prisoners. Honor for women is to study, to work, to be respected.
“I don’t know women like that anywhere else, they didn’t remind me of anyone else. They have a very strong attachment to their land and their culture despite the harshness of their existence.”
Solène Chalvon-Fioriti, director of “Afghanes”at franceinfo
In fact, one of them says in the film: “We will never be Western women.”
The documentary afghan women directed by Solène Chalvon-Fioriti is broadcast on Sunday March 12 at 8:55 p.m. on France 5.