“It’s important to put faces to what’s happening in the hospital,” declared Saturday April 13, infectious disease specialist Karine Lacombe in an interview given to franceinfo, a few days after her accusations of “moral and sexual harassment” against emergency physician Patrick Pelloux. The head of the infectious diseases department at Saint-Antoine hospital in Paris is releasing a book, published by Stock, Women will save the hospitalin which she denounces in particular “the gangrene of the system” sexist in the hospital.
Franceinfo: Can you explain the content of your book, which is devoted in particular to the sexist universe that reigns in the world of health?
Karine Lacombe: One of the chapters of this book, indeed, refers to life in the hospital, and in particular to those aspects which relate to sexism and sexuality and the relationships which are sometimes quite deleterious between men and women because of these sex stories.
In your book, you do not directly name Patrick Pelloux. You did it in the press a few days ago. Why not do it in the book?
The point of the book was not at all to denounce one person, it was really to show that it is a systemic problem. By naming what is happening in the hospital, I want to change the system. Subsequently, a journalist stuck her nose in, pulled the right threads, and when she asked me to confirm who I was referring to in my book, yes, I confirmed. I think that at some point, it is also important to put faces to what is happening to support the cause and the battle against sexism in hospitals.
Can you go back to exactly what happened at that time? What do you describe in this book in relation to Patrick Pelloux?
I am describing a general attitude, not necessarily just from Patrick Pelloux. I describe things that would now pass for sexual assault, such as touching, absolutely inappropriate gestures, gravelly remarks which were accompanied by some kind of acts of violence. At one time, this was not considered abnormal, but something that was part of the way the hospital operated. Obviously, now, with twenty-five years of hindsight and the MeToo movement that happened there, we know that these are things that are reprehensible.
On the part of Patrick Pelloux as on the part of other doctors, there were wandering hands but in fact, in a more global way, it is really a general atmosphere. Some could say that it was ribald, but no, it is not ribald because from the moment there is no consent of women, it is not ribald and that is not just fun for adults. What I talk about to illustrate the point in my book goes back 25 years. Fortunately, things have started to change, although overall there remains an atmosphere of sexism in the hospital and it is really important to change that.
Patrick Pelloux talks about filing a complaint against you.
I don’t have much to say on this subject.
You yourself refused to file a complaint.
My point is not to stigmatize a person, it is to use the behavior of a person to illustrate a problem that is systemic. I hope with this awareness to be able to make things happen. There are already things that are being done in terms of taking into account when there are offenses or even crimes. And now, what is important is to act on prevention and therefore to put in place actions, particularly in medical school, to change things and explain what moral harassment is, sexual in order to change mentalities. Probably in the closed medical environment, in the media environment, the political environment, these are things that were known. But it is often difficult for women to speak freely because we know that the consequences can be difficult. I think we are at a period where there is a window to talk freely about these things.
You say you have received several requests, several messages since you spoke in the press.
Yes, a lot of emails, a lot of phone messages, text messages, from people denouncing similar facts, more or less from the same people. With this journalist from Paris-Match, we are sorting, going back, checking the sources. If there are things that depend on criminal law, we will direct these people to the right courts. And then for the rest, we will analyze and try to learn lessons from it to make proposals, to change that.
Are you sure that in the hospital environment, it is often up to the victim to flee?
Of course. There are actually many female doctors who have contacted me to tell me that they were unable to obtain certain positions because of a barrier from the hierarchy, because they reported sexual assault to their direction. Some people have chosen themselves to go elsewhere, which can lead to fleeing and possibly a less prestigious career than one would have liked. It has always been difficult, until now, for these women to make themselves heard. You know how it goes: when a woman reports this type of comments, this type of behavior, she is easily passed off as hysterical. We can then suppress the affairs, possibly transfer people and the people are not believed, their words are not heard.
You yourself say that you have suffered humiliation, or even been ostracized following these altercations with Patrick Pelloux?
It is certain that at that time, the context was quite complicated and as every time there are people who exercise their function in an atmosphere of domination, the behavior is quickly marked by contempt and humiliation. Many of us suffered from this, especially since we were young and in a position of inferiority. For me, there were circumstances which meant that I went to the region for a certain time and when I returned, Patrick Pelloux had been transferred elsewhere and it is true that it had greatly improved the atmosphere at the hospital. Saint-Antoine.
For you, are things changing in hospitals?
Fortunately, in recent years, particularly since MeToo, there has been an awareness, at least for the most criminal acts, which has meant that people’s words have been better heard. There were ad hoc commissions that were set up and when it was necessary to condemn, there were condemnations. But beyond that, the overall atmosphere of sexism in the hospital persists and there continue to be unacceptable comments, unacceptable attitudes. Speaking out as I have been doing in recent days, I hope, will make things happen so that we are more simply in dealing with the problem, but really in taking into account the cause and in prevention and in the overall change of mentality.
We sense, from your words, that you do not want to become the symbol of #MeToo in the hospital or to create a duel between you and Patrick Pelloux.
Yes, absolutely, because that’s not my point at all. My point is not one person against another. My point is to make people understand the importance of the system, the corruption of the system and that things are changing profoundly and not to settle a score with one person. Because I think that doesn’t help the cause.