Interview with the French psychiatrist Christophe André, who made himself known through various works on meditation and who has just been published by Odile Jacob Value yourself and forget yourselfa book advocating modesty at a time when narcissism has become, he says, “epidemic.”
Value yourself and forget yourself… Is your title an ode to humility, a desire to rehabilitate modesty?
Exactly. I think humility is a very good thing for self-esteem. Humility is not about putting yourself down, but about no longer being interested in social competitions. It’s understanding that ultimately, wanting to always be in front, to be the best, is fine for certain situations – during a sporting competition, for example – but most of the time, being too obsessed with light and performance, It’s exhausting and toxic. The message is to aim for self-lightening.
You say that we should seek more to be appreciated than admired. But doesn’t society need ambitious people, people who aspire to lead a country, for example?
That there are people who have ambitions is very good. Being narcissistic and believing that you deserve to be the leader can even be an advantage in the competition for power. The problem is excess narcissism, like Donald Trump. I think there is another model to invent, with leaders perhaps less narcissistic, a little more altruistic, a little more humble, a little more modest, like Barack Obama.
Humility doesn’t sound very 2024, in the age of selfies and rainbow-colored life stories on social media. You’re talking about an epidemic of narcissism. Why now ?
For a long time, the individual had to submit to the group. At the table, the children had to be silent. At work, the boss was the boss, we had nothing to say. The citizen had to go to war when his country asked him to do so. These were very hierarchical, very authoritarian societies. From the 1960s, the individual rebelled and we went to the opposite extreme. The individual has assumed all the rights, has put himself back at the center of everything. The movement for the liberation of the contemporary individual has been accompanied by an excess of navel-gazing and narcissism. The final layer was obviously added by social media.
Social networks which are, ironically, the mecca of narcissism and, at the same time, the best way, when you frequent them, to feel miserable!
The problem is that they push us into incessant comparisons with people who lie. In real life, when you compare yourself to your friends, to your colleagues, to your neighbors, in general, things are fine. Someone around you may be much richer, have a very handsome spouse, but you know, for example, that they always have back pain. It’s real life and in the game of comparison, for us, it’s not a disaster. On social media only ideal things are shown, it’s like comparing yourself to movie stars. And there you lose.
You maintain that self-esteem is at its lowest in adolescence, and that it gradually increases to reach a maximum around the age of 40 or 50. What makes teenagers so vulnerable?
They have not yet discovered their qualities, have not yet proven themselves, they are not sure that they will be appreciated by others. They are looking for themselves, with the added bonus of this relative physical disgrace. For some, it is a period of low self-esteem, even self-loathing.
How, as a parent, as a teacher, can we help them during this difficult period?
Children need unconditional love first. They must know that their parents will never abandon them, that they will always love them. But what is problematic is the unconditional approval [qui les amène à penser que] whatever they do, their parents will approve of them. That their bad grades are not their fault, that the school does not have to punish them for their stupidities. What child psychologists also point out is that it is very important to encourage children, to congratulate them, not only for their performance, but also for their efforts, for their gestures of altruism.
Isn’t self-esteem like a wave, something that must be rebuilt with each hard blow in life?
Self-esteem is not completely stable. Feeling competent, loved, knowing that you matter to a sufficient number of people… that’s the fuel for self-esteem. We also need to have a small battery of autonomy that allows us to survive in these periods when we feel less loved, where we feel a little like a failure, frustrated with success or affection…
What keeps us afloat during difficult times, that is.
One of my colleagues who was a psychology professor used to [quand il parlait à ses étudiants de l’estime de soi] to take a $10 bill out of his pocket. How much is this ticket worth? he asked his students. Everyone was shouting: $10! Then he crumpled it. How much is this crumpled bill worth now? Still $10, the students replied. Then he trampled him with his shoes. How much now? Still $10, of course! This is what we call unconditional self-esteem, this little reminder that, whatever happens to us, there is a part of ourselves that remains worthy of being loved, of being appreciated and capable of achieving very worthy things.
Extract
One day when I described myself as “ordinary”, my interlocutor was startled and challenged me: “But no, you are not ordinary, no one is ordinary. ” But if ! In any case, I feel ordinary, and I draw neither shame nor glory from it. I am not someone who is spectacular, picturesque, shimmering. I do my job as a human as best I can, and as best I can all my other missions here on earth: father, husband, friend, doctor, author, stranger passing through. Ordinary doesn’t mean inferior, it means human.
Who is Christophe André?
Born in Montpellier, France, Christophe André practiced psychiatry in Toulouse and Paris, in a department specializing in the prevention of anxiety and depressive disorders. He was one of the first in France to offer meditation to his psychotherapy patients. He is the author of several best-selling books on meditation and well-being.
Value yourself and forget yourself
Odile Jacob editions
400 pages