Mark MacGann is the source that sent the Guardian the 124,000 documents that gave rise to the ICIJ investigation conducted with Radio France’s investigation unit, called the Uber Files. VShef lobbyist for Uber between 2014 and 2016, he was in charge of Europe, Africa and the Middle East. As such, he took part in the excesses described through the Uber Files.
>> Uber files: watch the investigation showing how Emmanuel Macron facilitated the installation of the VTC giant in France when he was Minister of the Economy
Mark MacGann was then in conflict with his ex-company, which he reproached for not having taken sufficient account of the pressures he was under from the taxi drivers. He explains in an exclusive interview that Tea Guardian shared with his colleagues at the ICIJ.
Paul Lewis (The Guardian): Why were you hired at Uber specifically?
Mark McGann: I was hired by Uber to lead a team to develop and implement our lobbying strategy with governments in Europe, Africa and the Middle East, so that we can enter the market and we develop, despite regulations that, in most cases, prevented Uber from setting up.
Were you and other senior Uber executives aware at the time that the company was flouting the law in cities and countries where taxi regulations existed?
In most countries under my jurisdiction, Uber was unlicensed, unlicensed, unlegal.
So is it fair to say, in simple terms, that the strategy was to knowingly break the law and then change it?
The mantra people kept repeating from office to office was management: don’t ask permission, dash in, hustle, hire drivers, get out there, do some marketing and soon people will wake up and see what an awesome thing Uber is.
You have met presidents, prime ministers, chancellors, mayors. How difficult was it to get these appointments for Uber?
I don’t think I’ve ever had such easy access to senior government officials, heads of government, heads of state in my career. It was intoxicating. I think Uber was at the time, in the tech world, and maybe in the business world in general, the most coveted player.
“To some degree, both on the investor and policy side, everyone was scrambling to get a date with Uber and hear what we had to offer them.”
In combing through your documents, we noticed numerous meetings between you, as well as other Uber executives, and British ministers. But these appointments were never declared. The public must not have known that they were taking place. How do you explain that ?
Maybe it was just a series of administrative oversights or maybe it was better not to say anything. I don’t know, you would have to ask the politicians.
What would your answer be?
Everyone has friends, and people accepted requests from their friends. They were reciprocating, and it was in no one’s interest for it to be exposed. Let this be made public.
So clearly, these were secret meetings?
These are hushed networks, which have existed for a very long time, but manage to change shape and continue to exist. Access to power is not something that is democratized.
Travis Kalanick (former boss of Uber) said “Violence guarantees success”. What do you think he meant by that?
I think he meant that the only way to get governments to change the rules and legalize Uber and allow Uber to grow, the way Uber wanted, was to keep the fight going, to keep the controversy going . And if it came down to Uber drivers going on strike, protesting in the streets, blocking Barcelona, Berlin or Paris, then that was the way to go.
Don’t you think it’s dangerous?
Of course it’s dangerous. It’s also very selfish, in a way. Because he was not the person who is in the street, who was threatened, attacked, beaten and in some cases killed… For me, it started with insults on Twitter. And then I started getting yelled at at airports, train stations, so much so that taxi drivers followed me wherever I went. They had spotted the place where I lived, they came knocking on my door, they published photos of me with friends, with my friends’ children.
“I started getting death threats on Twitter. So Uber said, ‘OK, we gotta protect you.’ So they forced me to have bodyguards every time I left my home, which was all the time since I was traveling all the time…”
In Rome we got into a car and a crowd of angry taxi drivers blocked our way, they treated us like we were the enemy. It was something I had never experienced. And I don’t blame the people who directly showed me this anger and this hatred. Here was a company that was willing to break all the rules, and use its money and its power to destroy… to ruin their livelihoods. So they needed someone to be mad at. They needed someone to shout at. They needed someone to intimidate, someone to threaten. I have become that person.
Do you hold Uber responsible for the threats and the hostile environment that you have faced in the exercise of your profession?
I hold Uber responsible for not changing the way the company behaves. His response to the violence against one of his senior executives was to provide him with bodyguards. There was no change in behavior. No change in tactics. No change in tone. It was: keep up the fight, keep the fire burning.
Couldn’t you have done something more, while you were still working at Uber, to complain about these internal practices?
The corporate culture did not really allow people to resist, to question the company’s decisions, its strategy or its practices. I ended up realizing that I had no influence, that I was wasting my time in this business. And that feeling, at this point in my career, combined with the fact that I was concerned not only for my own safety, but also for the safety of my family and friends… made me quit.
What would you say to those who blame you for leaking these documents to get revenge on Uber?
I think people need to look at the facts that I help bring to light. I’ve undeniably had grievances against Uber in the past. It’s not easy, but I believe it’s the right thing to do.
Do you feel partly responsible or guilty for the current living conditions of drivers?
Yes indeed. I am partly responsible, and that is what motivates me to do what I do as a whistleblower. It’s obviously not an easy thing, but because I was there at the time, I was the one who spoke to the governments, who insisted with the media, I was the one who said that we had to change the regulations and that it was going to benefit the drivers, that it was going to create so many economic opportunities. It turned out that was not the case. We sold people a lie. How can you have peace of mind if you don’t take your own responsibility for the way people are treated today?
Is this a way for you to make amends?
It’s about making amends. It’s about doing what’s right. I am responsible for what I have done. What I was trying to convince governments, ministers, presidents and drivers about is really awful, unfair and untruthful. So it behooves me to go back and say: I think we made a mistake. And I think that, to the extent that people want me to help them, I will do my part in trying to correct this error.