The Uber Files whistleblower, Mark MacGann, gave an exclusive interview to the French partners of the ICIJ, which includes the investigation unit of Radio France. Now 52 years old, between 2014 and 2016 he led the VTC platform’s lobbying efforts in Europe, Africa and the Middle East. After the revelations of the Uber Files, the former lobbyist returns to the relationship that Uber had with Emmanuel Macron when the latter was at the Ministry of the Economy. Settled in France for a few months, Mark MacGann also evokes his regrets and his future.
Elodie Guéguen (Radio France) and Damien Leloup (Le Monde): How do you judge the impact of the Uber Files revelations?
Mark McGann: I know there is a bit of controversy in different countries. I am amazed by the quality of the investigative work on the part of Radio France, the Worldfrom Washington Post, from Guardian and I hope that people will take the time to read to understand what my reasoning is, why I took the risk to do what I did.
Precisely, many people are wondering what prompted you to entrust us with these 124,000 documents… What exactly did you want to denounce?
I wanted to denounce the weakening of our social model. In my opinion, the excessive power of certain technology companies is a problem. I firmly believed that we were going to be able to give economic opportunities to hundreds of thousands, to millions of people who, until then, had been invisible. I saw in Uber an opportunity for many people to be able to set foot in the professional world. But there is a gap between the reality experienced by drivers today and the dream that was sold to them at the time. They weren’t told the whole truth.
The Uber Files show that you had very regular exchanges with Emmanuel Macron when he was at Bercy. One of the important pieces of information concerns a “deal”, as Emmanuel Macron called it himself. Can you explain to us precisely what it consisted of?
The word “deal” may imply things that are not very Catholic, but those who want to go on this ground are mistaken. There was no settlement. There can be no arrangement between a start-up and a sovereign government. It was more of a form of agreement. The government of the time, represented by its Minister of the Economy, told us: “You stop this illegal activity” [le service UberPop]. We didn’t do it right away, but we ended up doing it. At the same time, there was a political commitment. Mr. Macron was in the process of reforming several sectors of the economy. Uber was a small part of an industry that needed to be opened up to competition.
Emmanuel Macron was your privileged interlocutor within the government even though he was not in charge of the VTC file?
He is the one who took the time to listen to us. Many others did not want it. We smelled too much sulfur. Besides, we were Americans. The minister responsible for VTCs is the Ministry of Transport, of course, but Uber is a digital platform. So it was completely legitimate to ask Bercy to try to make us heard.
You also communicate directly with Emmanuel Macron when you are faced with administrative or legal problems – such as searches. With hindsight, do you find it normal to have called on the Minister of the Economy at such times?
When your house is on fire and you only have one phone number that answers, you call that phone number. Each time there was a hiccup – and God knows there were many in France – each time we had a serious problem, we contacted the ministers. Besides, I think it was a bit inflated of us to solicit Minister Macron, but we did it. To my knowledge, there was no direct intervention on his part. Now, I recognize that we played smart at Uber by “preparing” a police raid in order not to cooperate, once again. Looking back, I think we should have done things differently.
You want to talk about the “kill switch”, this circuit breaker used during searches to prevent access to the company’s servers?
Yes.
Were you fully aware of the implementation of this process?
It’s a process that existed when I arrived in the company. I understand that these practices have since been discontinued. I never gave the order directly to operate the “kill switch”. I had no authority on this subject but I was there when it was used in Paris, Amsterdam or Brussels.
President Macron said he was proud of what he had done in the Uber file, that he had no regrets, that it had created jobs. Do you share his sentiment?
First, for me, it’s complicated to use the word “employment”… Uber’s model is: we don’t have cars, we don’t have employees. I am disappointed to see that Uber continues to want to oppose in court when there are legislative initiatives in order to give a minimum framework to drivers who work hard and who are poorly paid.
There have been many political reactions targeting the French president since the publication of the Uber Files. Do you regret it?
That was not the purpose of the operation. I have no legitimacy to interfere in the Franco-French political context.
If there is a parliamentary commission of inquiry, as some opposition parties in France are calling for, will you agree to take part in it?
If I am asked questions about what happened at Uber at the time, in meetings, when I was physically present, yes, it is my duty to answer. If it is to talk to me about the behavior of such and such a political figure, that is not my role.
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If you do not condemn Uber’s practices, do you have any regrets about the methods used?
There was a lot of violence. I completely understand the taxi drivers who had a certain right in the market. When a company arrives and says: “We can do better for less”, it creates a context of violence that is unacceptable, and I had my share of responsibility.
Was the violence fueled by Uber executives at the time?
No, at the time, it was not our will. I was in favor of deregulation in the transport sector. There were the same number of taxi licenses in Paris in 2014 as in the 1950s, it didn’t make sense! Now, it’s true, it’s not up to a foreign – or even French – company to dictate to the Republic how it should reform things. In short: Uber was right to want to introduce competition into city transport, but sometimes the methods were not acceptable.
When we saw that Uber drivers were in danger, even in mortal danger in certain countries of the world, we should have calmed things down much more quickly. There are also consumers and customers who have been beaten up, in France and elsewhere. There are people who have lost their lives in Brazil, in Mexico, in South Africa. And even if we thought our project was something positive, I think we should have been more patient.
“We were speed, we wanted everything, right away. We wanted an unprecedented stock market valuation and I think we should have been more adult and we should have respected democracy. We didn’t. .”
Mark MacGannto the French partners of the ICIJ
You somehow forced the door to enter the French VTC market?
I think we broke down the door… We didn’t have the maturity or the clarity to see that we weren’t alone in the world and that we had to take into account the interests of others.
Are you calling for a change in the framework of lobbying practices with public authorities?
At Uber, we had unexpected, disproportionate access to public authorities. It was amazing to be able to reach ministers, prime ministers, presidents all over the world, because we were innovative. The doors were wide open! It’s exhilarating when you can text, WhatsApp message, a leader. It’s even more intoxicating when that person responds to you. With hindsight, I perceive that we had privileges, access that is not given to all start-ups and that, somewhere, it was unfair.
What is the future of Mark MacGann, the lobbyist turned whistleblower?
It will be up to others to tell me if I can be of help. I did what I did with my eyes wide open. I was not an innocent observer. I was right in it. Now I have exposed the mistakes I made. So if the public authorities want a hand from someone who has been within the company to try to improve the laws, the regulations, I will be there. If I can be useful, I wish to be. And if not, I hope I will be judged on my actions.