Robert Kyagulanyi Ssentamu, aka Bobi Wine, is a musician and current leader of the Ugandan opposition. He is the leader of the National Unity Platform (NUP) and the People Power Movement. The documentary, Bobi Wine: The People’s President directed by Moses Bwayo and Christopher Sharp, retraces over six years the activism and political journey of the Ugandan opponent mistreated by a regime which is trying to eliminate him, just like his fellow fighters and his supporters. Franceinfo Culture met Bobi Wine and Christopher Sharp, also co-producer of the film in Paris during a screening of the film nominated for an Oscar in the best documentary category.
franceinfo Culture: What does the fact of having put your music at the service of your fellow citizens to promote democracy in your country mean to you?
Bobi Wine: I feel great satisfaction because I got into music for myself, to express my thoughts and beliefs, as well as those of the people where I come from [Bobi Wine est né dans un bidonville de Kampala, la capitale ougandaise], ordinary people. At first, like every other artist, I was a party animal. But I decided to use my music to really speak out, especially after realizing that it is a very powerful voice. I am very happy that my music allowed me to reach another level, especially when I decided to get involved in politics.
What is the most difficult thing for you, except the risk of being killed at any time by the Yoweri Museveni regime?
Bobi Wine : Many things are, but the hardest thing is looking into the eyes of the parents of my deceased comrades, bringing their bodies home to bury them. I still have survivor’s syndrome and the regime is using it against me. According to this regime, which kills our people, it is me, Bobi Wine, who takes people’s children to the slaughterhouse…
By deciding to follow Bobi Wine, you intended to follow a musician. But the adventure has become sociopolitical…
Christopher Sharp: My father was born in Uganda and I grew up there. I quickly understood that it was a military dictatorship. I always thought Bobi would be the liberator of Uganda, from our first meeting. So I was very honored, first of all, to spend time with him and Barbie [l’épouse de Bobi Wine], then to make the film and tell their story. When you make documentaries, it’s to change the world. And this film is able to do it.
How did you feel when the documentary was nominated for an Oscar?
Christopher Sharp: I was very happy. During a Q&A with Bobi, someone asked us what it was like campaigning for the Oscars. And Bobi replied: “I’m not campaigning for the Oscars, I’m campaigning for the liberation of my country.” And each time the film is awarded, the exposure is more and more important. Which strengthens the protection of the protagonists of the film, further frightens the Ugandan regime, makes the West more guilty because it looks at this country that it subsidizes and everyone can see what this money is used for. This is what cinema can do. This film can help liberate Uganda.
Like your music, Bobi Wine…
Bobi Wine: The music is very powerful. Poetry too. I’ll even talk about the power of art in general. I started out as a singer and my songs and lyrics sent powerful messages. No wonder my music is banned in Uganda. Today, art in film also proves to be a powerful tool, so yes, art continues to be the pillar of our struggle.
Christopher Sharp and Moses Bwayo, who directed this documentary, delve into the intimacy of a couple, the one you form with your wife Barbie Kyagulanyi. You are inseparable in this political struggle. Is it for Uganda and your children that you are engaged in this fight?
Bobi Wine: We do it first for ourselves because we want to be free. I want to be free. My wife wants to be free, my friends want to be free, the whole country wants to be free. They turned to me, told me I had a strong voice. Why don’t you talk to this guy [le président ougandais], they told me again. And they’ve given me so much confidence that I’m doing it and we’re doing it even though it’s very brutal. But at least we know that we were able to make things happen, to make the regime uncomfortable.
Even if we are not yet free, having succeeded in making our oppressor uncomfortable is already a success.
Bobi Winefranceinfo Culture
Is it easy to let people into your privacy?
Bobi Wine: Honestly, it wasn’t easy. I did the exercise because it was a good idea to tell our story to inspire young people. However, we did not immediately let the camera enter our privacy. But over time, we ended up forgetting the camera and those who held it, notably Moses, became comrades because they were beaten with us. They were arrested with us. We laughed together, cried together.
How was the filming organized while death looms over Bobi Wine and his entourage, including your team? Was there a moment when you were particularly afraid for Bobi Wine, yourself or your team during this shoot?
Christopher Sharp: I have a fantastic co-director, Moses Bwayo, and we had equally fantastic people behind the various cameras on the system. I was always afraid for the crew, especially the cameramen. Moses got shot. He spent time in prison. Many people who were traveling with Bobi were injured. And the people you see in the film are not the ones who are in the worst shape. Those you don’t see suffer more: they get arrested when they have a Bobi Wine hat or even a sticker. They are tortured and you find them in a ditch. The driving force behind a dictatorship is fear. If people are afraid, they keep quiet. People look to Bobi for that.
You never know when you start making a documentary like this. It’s an act of faith. Bobi could be imprisoned or even worse, killed after a week. When his driver was shot, I thought Bobi was dead and it was all over. Two months ago, I was with Barbie in London. Bobi was in Uganda, in the west of the country, and he was campaigning. Barbie received a message from a European embassy, which obviously knew how to reach her, and which informed her of a plot to assassinate her husband. He had to be taken out of where he was immediately. The threat is permanent.
You say, however, Bobi Wine, in the documentary, that there is no reason to be afraid when there is obviously cause. We saw what happened to Russian opponent Alexeï Navalny. How do we manage this daily threat?
Bobi Wine: I’m obviously scared. But I say we shouldn’t be afraid because, like Navalny, all of us who try to challenge powerful dictators are the living dead. Putin, who is Museveni’s godfather, did it. If this can happen to Navalny [qui avait également fait l’objet d’un documentaire qui a remporté l’Oscar en 2023] who is so popular, known to Western governments, what about me? I know anything can happen to me. This is why I am using the time given to me to raise awareness among as many people as possible. That way, if the worst happened to me, the world would know about it and people could be inspired by my fight.
What do you hope for your country?
Bobi Wine: Freedom. I hope that Uganda will be free, will be a country where we do not have to live in fear, where we no longer have to fear telling the truth for fear of the consequences. We want to live in a country where human rights are respected, where hundreds of thousands of people do not need to flee their homes to avoid persecution for their political opinion. We want to live with dignity in our country. Internationally, I want my country to be perceived as the most beautiful place on planet Earth, because it is true, and not as a country of dictators, that of Amin and Museveni.
While you want to live in a democracy in Uganda, we observe around the world that authoritarian regimes are on the rise and large democracies are becoming fragile. As in the United States with Donald Trump, probably the future Republican presidential candidate. What does all this inspire you?
Bobi Wine: The history of Uganda and those of many other countries in Africa should serve as a lesson to the entire world, including America and Europe. Every time a dictatorship wants to establish itself, it must be neutralized immediately. Otherwise it will pass from the state of a seed to that of a tree. We know America is the greatest democracy in the world, but look what’s happening with Trump. Even here, in Europe, Lukashenko in Belarus, Putin…
Despite the bad experience of 2021, are you going to run again for the presidential election?
Bobi Wine: Yes, because it’s the only way we have. We cannot fight with weapons because we know what happened to the people in Syria. Dictators always want you to adopt their own fighting style. All they know is violence. All they have is violence. Therefore, we want to make this violence ineffective and oppose them with non-violence.
Actually, for me, it’s not about being president. I will try to bring about the fall of General Museveni and if he fell today, I don’t know if I would show up or not. I only show up because he is there and everything indicates that people are counting on me.
I beat him in the 2021 election. I can beat him again. We have the support and blessing of the people, so we will challenge him again.
Bobi Winefranceinfo Culture
What is your most vivid memory of this documentary?
Christopher Sharp : There is a scene in the film where we are together in Washington. We are in the car and I am talking to Bobi. He then confides that Museveni was his favorite revolutionary. And Bobi continued: “You said the problem in Africa and Uganda in particular is leaders who have stayed in power too long. What happened to you?”. For me, that pretty much sums it up. It all depends on how people come to power. Museveni took power by killing half a million people. All you have to do is see Mugabe [l’ancien président zimbabwéen, dictateur qui fut autrefois un libérateur]…The film opens so many doors. People often tell Bobi that he will become a Mugabe but I don’t think so because he will come to power peacefully. Besides, he will not become a Mugabe because I will have my eye on him (laughs)…
Bobi Wine: Certainly (laughs).
Christopher Sharp : Bobi always says that, in the first year of a mandate, you must ensure that you put in place the institutions that will remove you from power.
Bobi Wine : With what Museveni has become, I don’t even trust myself anymore. The example of Macky Sall in Senegal…Power corrupts and I am a human being. I must guard against this by building institutions that survive human greed.
What do you say to your children, who must also be protected on all levels, as we see in the documentary?
Bobi Wine: The truth now. For a long time, my wife and I didn’t tell them. But they discovered her at school. Their friends told them that their father was in prison and for them, those who go to prison are criminals. Therefore, we owe them the truth. It helped us a lot because now we are friends with our children. They understand when I’m not home. They don’t blame me, just like their mother. They know we’re trying to work toward something bigger. They also understand that many other children do not have parents because we have, in some way, caused them trouble. As such, we have a responsibility and they understand it.