Cécile Coudriou, president of Amnesty international France, estimated on franceinfo Monday April 4 that he “we must establish the facts on the fact that there are elements of war crimes” in Boutcha, near kyiv in Ukraine, where Russia is accused of having massacred civilians. While the Ukrainian power accuses Moscow of having killed hundreds of inhabitants, discovered in the streets and mass graves, the Kremlin “categorically” rejects any responsibility.
franceinfo: Is there any doubt about “war crimes”?
Cecile Coudriou: More than ever, we have a lot of information, images, videos, literally live testimonials. It is something that must also call us to patience and prudence. We have already been able to verify a lot of information thanks to our digital means to authenticate videos, photos and also testimonials. As for war crimes, concerning air strikes on civilians or the use of prohibited weapons such as cluster bombs, in the case of Boutcha, our teams are at work and we are trying to be as reactive as possible. At the same time, we call on all people who are of course with their eyes glued to what is happening in Ukraine to pay attention as well. We will take the time to be able to verify this information as well. We collected testimonials. It is important to be able to cross them, to be certain that all this information is absolutely undeniable.
What evidence can you gather?
It is necessary to establish the facts on the fact that there are constituent elements of war crimes. This is an extremely important step and we are actively contributing on the ground and from a distance. Then, to establish responsibilities, it is extremely complicated. This is why we absolutely must not make any mistakes and be extremely precise and meticulous in this investigation. We want to contribute to the investigation of the International Criminal Court, so we must be certain that all these elements can subsequently be used by the courts without ever being called into question. When we see to what extent Russia, in particular Vladimir Putin, have become masters in the art of propaganda, in the art of trying to turn things upside down, by wanting, for example, to appeal to the Security Council when they are accused of war crimes, it is extremely complicated. And that is why, more than ever, it is important to have specialist researchers and to take the time to verify all this information, which is absolutely atrocious.
Russia talks about staging: how to establish responsibilities?
Even if there are proven facts, it is very complicated to be able to be certain that it is indeed the Russian army, and not for example militias like Wagner’s militias which are even more difficult to trace. It can be extremely complex situations to determine in terms of responsibilities. That’s why we always take the time and build rapport. For example, when we determined the use of cluster bombs, it was proven both by digital images and then by weapons researchers in the field. We are absolutely categorical, we have been able to independently and completely establish the use of cluster bombs, which is contrary to international law, and which also constitutes a war crime.
Are Boutcha’s images a surprise to you?
Unfortunately no. We nevertheless tend, a priori, to say that this is a confirmation of this escalation that we have already been able to document, particularly in Syria, in Chechnya, in particular in Grozny. After bombardments and the use of weapons in an extremely massive way on the civilians, there were absolutely atrocious exactions. This is why we are particularly worried about civilians. That is why we want at all costs to be able to determine the facts because all these victims must be able to obtain justice afterwards. Unfortunately, there are precedents which show that the wars led by Vladimir Putin have always been particularly dirty wars where cynicism has been matched only by permanent lies. We are extremely vigilant in order to be able to put an end to this war as quickly as possible, by also helping to put pressure on the international community so that it continues its talks, and at the same time, continuing our investigative efforts to help the International Penal Court.