Jean Viard, sociologist, research director at CNRS is on franceinfo every weekend. Today, we are talking about the 10th anniversary of the establishment in France of the American company Uber. France was also the first country to be conquered after the United States. With first a vehicle service with driver came to compete with taxis, then a delivery service, meals and now even grocery delivery. So much so that we speak of a “uberization” of our consumption and the world of work.
franceinfo: With hindsight. Jean Viard, can we say that the arrival of Uber in France was a major upheaval?
It was an upheaval, especially in Île de France. Most of Uber is in Île de France, but not only, it was also linked to the fact that taxis had blocked the number of vehicles a lot. So, finding a taxi in Paris during rush hour was an unresolved battle. So there was a great demand from all of us.
And then, on the other hand, what must also be said is that we have entered a digital world which is disrupting our societies. There is a multitude of inventions which are in the process of generalizing and which come from the fact that we are in a delivery company, and at the same time of life more and more local, more and more on the “close” . It is this delivery / local couple that in fact restructures our relationship to the territory.
In particular in the health crisis, does that also play a role in the amplification of this movement? The services of Uber and all the platforms of the same kind follow one another with the French?
Of course, because during the health crisis, we were locked up at home. Fortunately there was the Internet “god”, if I may say so, because otherwise it would have been something else altogether. But of course, we have increased deliveries. It’s not just Uber, I would go to the local pizza delivery man, it’s all of these delivery systems that are developing.
And then what we can clearly see is that, for example, in the United States, 20% of people who have teleworked did not want to return to their company and set up as self-employed. And in France, we had the same thing last year with an extraordinary explosion of people looking in this huge web, a niche to create a small business.
franceinfo: The self-employed status that you just mentioned is very interesting, because it leads us to this second aspect of uberization, that of the working world. Self-employed workers who are put in touch with their customers by a platform like Uber, which therefore relieves itself of all social protection and the costs that go with it. This is the big question.
As for Uber drivers, for example, they donate a quarter of what they earn with a ride, to the platform. And according to the general manager of Uber in France, Laureline Serieys, who was the guest of franceinfo a week ago, these drivers would not question this model. 80% of drivers want to be and stay independent. In other words, not wanting to become an employee with all the social protection that goes with it. On the one hand, does this figure seem credible to you, Jean Viard, and above all, how do you explain this?
Jean Viard: This figure seems to me to be on the order of magnitude of reality. First, we must say one thing with Uber, it is that look in Paris, the drivers come mainly from the suburbs, and are often children of immigration. So, if you like, I would say that with Uber, there are blockages in the traditional systems of selecting taxis, all that, but Uber has opened up to this youth who, basically, did not have access to it. – for reasons which relate to the xenophobia of the company, it must be said also.
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Afterwards, I went to Deliveroo, I went to chat with people a bit. We have the same process. It’s a little different: Deliveroo is about people who deliver by bike. Most people come because they want one thing: you want to buy yourself a computer, and well for six months you’re going to be riding three hours at night. It is a little often this one-off model, on a project. I need 2,000 or 3,000 euros, in addition to my job, in addition to my unemployment, and I do it like that. There are very, very few people who have the idea of doing their whole life Deliveroo …
And you would say that these self-employed workers, especially in the younger generations, choose this constrained and forced status, because indeed, the working world, sometimes, does not want them, or is too rigid, too heavy. Or, is it a real adherence to this form of freedom. And then, basically, it doesn’t matter if we don’t have contributions for unemployment, for retirement, etc.
Me, I believe that there is a real adhesion to this liberal model, but at the same time, indeed initially, it is not true for everyone, there were fights in certain cities so that the drivers are salaried. There are people for whom this is not true and on the other hand, there are age groups, indeed, in particular the youth for whom, basically, it is a phenomenon of freedom.
How to articulate all this with a certain flexibility? Let us not be naive, there are conditions of exploitation which are completely scandalous, but let us not generalize, let us also understand this desire for deep autonomy which is in society.