Cyril Chabanier, president of the CFTC, is the economic guest of franceinfo, Monday September 23.
franceinfo: Michel Barnier, the Prime Minister, always has a word for the social partners. This was the case when he took office at Matignon, as well as on Sunday, September 22, on TF1. Is this just for form’s sake in your opinion, or are you hoping for a real change in method? ?
Cyril Chabanier: We always hope for a change of method. So I hope that it is not just a matter of form and communication, even if we have very often heard, in recent years, changes of method that have not always been followed by effects.
Emmanuel Macron talks about intermediary bodies, not social partners. We see that Michel Barnier, for his part, always includes you in his speeches.
It’s true, he talks a lot about trade union and employer organisations, about constructive dialogue. He’s still someone who is used to Europe, to being in this dialogue, in compromise. We can’t get texts passed in Europe if there is no dialogue, no compromise. So I think he’s going to work like that. Afterwards, you know, we always remain cautious.
You haven’t seen him or his teams yet?
We met his chief of staff, who received us because the composition of the government was taking a little time, so it was good that we could discuss. And the information we have is that we will be received before his general policy speech. And I think it is very important to be able to influence his general policy speech and not simply to be in the reaction once he has delivered it, on October 1st.
So, there are several important topics on the table. Pensions first of all. Michel Barnier said that while respecting the financial framework, he was counting on you, the social partners, to improve this law, to “reform the reform” of pensions. How does the CFTC hope to contribute to the discussion in concrete terms?
So, first of all, I would like to say that we would prefer that this reform be repealed. We are still resolutely opposed to this reform. All the unions agree to say this. Afterwards, if we are invited to renegotiate, to improve the law, we, at the CFTC, have decided to accept this invitation, if it comes soon. I believe that there are issues that are important, that are not resolved. We have a big issue on arduousness and we have concrete proposals. So, that would be something good and that would already allow us to correct a little this famous legal age of 64, by making people who have the most arduous jobs leave a little earlier. They still need to be defined. But I think that it is possible and quite easy, at least for physical jobs.
We still understand from Michel Barnier’s speech that he does not intend to go back on retirement at 64.
We clearly understood it. Legally, they tell us that it is complicated, that we would not be able to manage the stock of people who have already passed this reform. So, we know very well that this, even if we are going to ask for it, it is going to be extremely complicated. Afterwards, going to talk about hardship, to talk about gender equality, to try to re-discuss a subject that is close to our hearts, at the CFTC, the age of cancellation of the reduction, these famous 120,000 people who must work until 67 to leave at full rate. A real subject too.
Do you feel an openness on these subjects?
Yes, Michel Barnier mentioned the subject of hardship, he mentioned the subject of small pensions, a little less on gender equality. These are subjects that may seem a little trivial or related to the legal age of 64, which is our great fight. But if we manage to make progress on these subjects, I am certain that these will not be small victories. So, we will do our utmost. You know, I have a tradition, everything we can scratch, we try to scratch.
The general secretary of the CGT on franceinfo, Sophie Binet, called for a strike and demonstration on October 1, to demand the repeal of the pension reform. Is this also your case?
No, we are not calling for a demonstration on October 1st. Firstly because it has a very political connotation. Demonstrating on the day the Prime Minister makes his general policy speech. Well…
I would like to point out that the date had been chosen before.
Yes, but when we discussed among ourselves to choose October 1st, we already knew that there was a strong chance that it would be the day of the general policy speech. Our tradition is still to grumble once we have heard the Prime Minister speak. So first, we will meet him, we hope before October 1st, we will listen to his general policy speech and then we will react. And if we see that things are not going in the right direction, we do not rule out being able to mobilize.
But until now, you were in the inter-union regarding the fight against the pension reform. Now, the CGT is calling for a demonstration, not you. Doesn’t that risk confusing the message to the new government?
No, I don’t think so. The inter-union is a great tool, but we can’t operate as an inter-union all the time, otherwise there would be only one union organization in the country. So we continue together to say that we are for the repeal. We will already see if some agree to go and discuss with the Prime Minister or not, if there is no suspension, but opening of negotiations on the themes that we have mentioned. We may not all agree on that, but we will respect our differences.
And then, some have a tradition of putting more pressure on the government, and we at the CFTC have the tradition of first listening to what the Prime Minister is going to say. We can’t complain without knowing what openings he is going to propose.
Another hot topic: unemployment insurance. In July, the Attal government put on hold the reform that provides for tougher access to unemployment insurance and a reduction in the duration of benefits. What do you expect from the new Minister of Labor, Astrid Panosyan-Bouvet?
First, we expect it to give back control to the social partners, since for months we have seen this desire of the government to take back control of unemployment insurance, thus dispossessing the social partners of this subject.
So you don’t want the new reform to be effective, since it is the case from December 1st?
The social partners signed an agreement in November 2023, in which there were still things to be resolved, which we had to resolve in particular in the discussion of the work-life pact, with the employment of seniors, which we talked about a lot. We did not succeed, so we would like to start again from this agreement. The employers are ready to discuss again the employment of seniors, on which we did not succeed just before the summer, and finally be able to find solutions.
When she was a member of parliament, she was quite open to discussion on this subject. She was also critical of the unemployment insurance reform.
She was critical of the reform, she wanted to leave more room for the social partners. So here is the opportunity to do it. I have no doubts about the personality or the method of the minister. She is someone we know, we often work with her. I have had the opportunity to work a lot on the subject of pension provision.
So it’s a good appointment?
It’s a pretty good appointment. There’s a strong gesture being made at the level of the social partners. Afterwards, the whole question is the room for maneuver that we’re going to leave to the minister because we’ve known labor ministers who had the will to move things forward, but every time we found a semblance of agreement, there was a “no” from Matignon or the Élysée.
Are you thinking of Elisabeth Borne?
You mentioned it for me, very well. So here we want the minister to have room for maneuver. The method is obviously very important, but if we spend hours discussing, finding compromises and at the end of the day we get a rejection from Matignon or the Élysée, or even both, it won’t be of much use. So let’s let the social partners do it and I think the minister is ready to move forward with us.