720 reports of attacks on the principle of secularism in October, in the 59,260 secondary schools and establishments, “it’s very minor, but also very worrying”, estimated Thursday, November 10 on franceinfo Rémy Sirvent, national secretary of the SE-UNSA teachers’ union, in charge of the “secularism, school and society” sector. In September, 313 reports were registered. To remedy this problem, the trade unionist insists in particular on the need “to ensure social diversity at school, especially in the most segregated establishments”.
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franceinfo: What do you think of this figure revealed by the Ministry of National Education?
Remy Sirvent: It’s a number [les signalements d’atteinte au principe de laïcité] which fluctuates all the time under the bar of 1,000 cases per month, for a school population in public education of 10 million students. It is therefore very minor, but also very worrying. It is difficult to know whether this increase corresponds to an increase in attacks in October, compared to September, or to an increase in the reports of facts which existed, but which until now did not go up.
What rules are most often broken?
Obviously, these are those which concern the wearing of signs or outfits manifesting a religious affiliation. Challenge to the law of March 15, 2004 [qui encadre, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics], started on March 16, 2004. There are groups, organizations which think that finally, this possibility for the pupils to have religious symbols at school is the expression of a freedom. We think the opposite. If this law did not exist, students would be forced to wear religious symbols by those around them. This law protects them.
On what basis can it be said that a garment is used for this purpose?
It is during a phase of dialogue, provided for by this law, that this can be determined. Where it is easiest is when there are outfits or religious signs, which are prohibited. Where it is most complicated is when you have an outfit that is not necessarily a religious outfit, but which is used to show a religious affiliation. It can be detected if the student wears this outfit every day, if he refuses to take it off, especially when it comes to physical education [Éducation physique et sportive] or experimental sciences in a laboratory.
What happens in this case?
Through the dialogue phase, we can see if the student has understood the law, if he is able to accept it or if he categorically opposes it. If this is the case, the way of the sanction remains open. But when we asked teachers in 2018 about these questions, they told us that dialogue managed to calm the situation in 98% of cases.
The Minister of National Education, Pap Ndiaye, wants to strengthen training, protection and support for staff. Teachers today are not sufficiently trained, accompanied on these questions of secularism?
They are insufficiently trained, even if the ministry has launched a training plan in the principles of secularism. The duration of these trainings is one day only. It is still quite difficult to treat [en aussi peu de temps] these attacks on secularism, but also and above all to pedagogically train educational teams to lead students to think, choose and act freely.
Are there other ways to fight against these attacks on secularism?
The second way to act in favor of secularism is to ensure social diversity at school, especially in the most segregated establishments. It is in these establishments that the religious claim is the strongest. This means, in return, that it is necessary to reduce the reservoirs of school interpersonality, the schools with high social selection from which the most favored fringe of the population benefits.
“The inter-self of some builds the segregation of others.”
Rémy Sirvent, national secretary of the SE-UNSA unionat franceinfo
This social selection at school is notably implemented by private education, which is nevertheless largely financed by public money.